010: Kevin Patterson | Polyamory + Parenting

{Soft Instrumental music plays as introduction} 

{Person speaking} 

Welcome to Sex Positive Families where parents, caring adults, and advocates come to grow and learn about sexual health in a supportive community. I’m your host, and the founder of SPF, Melissa Carnagey. Join me, and special guests, as we dive into the art of sex-positive parenting. Together, we will shake the shame and trash the taboos to strengthen sexual health talks with the children in our lives. Thank you so much for joining us! 

{Same person speaking} 

Melissa Carnagey: “Hi Families, we have made it to the tenth episode and I want to thank you so much for joining us on this journey. The support and response has been so positive as we’re having conversations that shine a light on diverse experiences and strategies as they relate to sexual health within families and this episode is no exception. I talk with Kevin Patterson, educator, speaker, and author about polyamory. And for those new to this, polyamory is the state or practice of maintaining multiple romantic and/or sexual relationships at the same time with the awareness and consent of all folks involved. Kevin is the creator of an online forum called, Poly Role Models and has recently authored a book called, Love’s Not Color Blind: Race and Representation in Polyamorous and Other Alternative Communities. Kevin shares with us his own journey toward polyamory, why representation is so important in this community and what parenting in a polyamorous family can look like. Let’s have a listen.” 

M.C.: “Hi Kevin, how are you?”

Kevin Patterson: “Hey! I’m doing good. How are you doing?”

M.C.: “I’m doing well. We are excited to have you on the SPF podcast! So just want to get started with telling us a little about the journey toward polyamory and toward the work that you’re doing now.”

K.P.: “My journey with polyamory started with my then-girlfriend now wife, we just sort of stumbled into like some group activity let’s say and it turned into, a lot of like really meaningful conversations about what we wanted to do with the exclusivity in our relationship or whether we wanted exclusivity at all. And we decided not to! Basically, we found ourselves open and decided to stay open and that looked a bunch of different ways over the course of several years before we found like a polyamory community, and resources, and books, and articles; and it sort of, we were able to figure out there was a term for something that we had already been doing for over a decade. We found out that there was a community where we could sort of find an established culture and language and just sort of put it together. Which was awesome, but it was really white spaces that we were finding ourselves in.”

M.C.: “Mmm…”

K.P.: “And when we started talking about, sort of the lack of people of color that we would find in these spaces we started talking about it and people were listening because they felt the same way and it just became, sort of a niche. I was talking, people were listening, I was writing, people were reading, and it became a real ongoing thing. Leading up to the book that I am putting out.”

M.C.: “Y’all also have a family. You have some children in your life, is that correct?

K.P.: “Yes, yes I have two children! Two daughters ages seven and five.” 

M.C.: “Awesome! There are a lot of myths and misconceptions out there, I’ve found in terms of people’s understanding of polyamory. Some of those that seem common are that people thought that folks that were in polyamorous relationships feared commitment, or that they’re cheating, or that, it’s folks that just want to have a lot of sex, or that it’s just for white people. So, what would you say to some of these myths?”

K.P.: “Well, addressing them sort of I guess in order. The idea that its people who are avoiding commitment is sort of a silly thing. In that, it looks like it’s basically, based on the premise that commitment only looks one way and we commit to so many different things in our lives in so many different ways. I mean you go to a gym, you commit to lifting weights and doing cardio but no one ever says that you have to choose one or the other. Being polyamorous isn’t a fear of commitments it’s the willingness to make multiple commitments,”

M.C.: “Mmm…”

K.P.: “And there are people in my life, that have been in my life for YEARS! And been with my wife for sixteen years. I’ve got partners who I’ve been with three or five however long and none of them are diminished by the fact that I’m with other people. It’s just we have separate commitments looking for separate things, and that’s just fine. The idea that it’s just cheating I mean, cheating is just a basic breakdown of rules. A breakdown of agreements. A breakdown of boundaries.”

M.C.: “Mhm.”

K.P.: “If we’re all on the same page there is no cheating that is occurring. I mean just by basic by definition point by point.”

M.C.: “Right.”

K.P.: “And there are people who don’t have sex in their polyamorous relationships at all. It gets really easy to break it down into like “who’s doing who” if you don’t know what you’re really talking about or you don’t know what you’re looking at. But people understand emotional responses, people understand emotional connections to multiple folks. People have multiple friends people have multiple kids, multiple parents. There are folks who fall in love with that hot coworker knowing full well that they are going to go home to their spouse who they also love. ”

M.C.: “Right.”

K.P.: “Polyamory just says that we’re going to be open and honest about this. Sometimes that’s something that will include sex. Sometimes that’s something that will include romance and sometimes it’s not and that’s okay. Part of what I love about polyamory just sort of in general is that it’s customizable enough we can all sort of get in where we fit in. Where I’ll have relationships that do or don’t include sex. I’ll have relationships that do or don’t include romance… ” 

M.C.: “Right.”

K.P.: “…some of my partners are involved with my kids’ lives and some of them don’t want anything really to do with my kids. And that’s fine as long as we’re on the same page of what it is we’re looking for.” 

M.C.: “And that makes perfect sense, and you know our society from early on programs us in really strategic ways…”

K.P.: “Oh, definitely.”

M.C.: “To kinda see things, marriage, having children, having this nuclear family and again in the heterosexual construct it’s, it feels as though, many people are not prepared to think of relationships in these ways. At least that primary romantic relationship. we can think of friends that way but that primary love relationship we’re just not prepared for that often.”

K.P.: “And it is the only thing that irks me about monogamy is just that it’s approached so often from a, from a standard of perspective like a default setting perspective. Where I know people who argue about what they’re going to get on their pizzas. You know, I’ve had friends who argue about where are we going to raise our kids, what religion? You know what kind of education do they want, but they never stop and ask, what do you want out of the exclusivity of this relationship?”

M.C.: “Right.”

K.P.: “They just assume that everyone is on the same page there.” 

M.C.: “Right.”

K.P.: “No one ever asked the question, “What are we going to do in the event of infidelity?” Because if you say that, you’re threatening the idea of infidelity. And then if it happens, when it happens, because it happens in a lot of our relationships…”

M.C.: “Yeah.”

K.P.: “You know people don’t know what to do there. People don’t have, they haven’t had a chance to really condition the emotional responses. They haven’t really had a chance to like figure out what they really want out of that situation. The marriage rate right now is something like 50%…

M.C.: “Mhm.” 

K.P.: “You know…”

M.C.: “Mhm.” [laughter]

K.P.: “And I’m sure of those fifty percent that is staying married, there’s some infidelity going on there as well.”

M.C.: “Right.”

 K.P.: “And no one is having these sorts of hard conversations about what they do and don’t want out of the structural relationship. Its just used the term that Aggie Sez popularizes, it’s the relationship escalator. You meet with somebody, you begin dating, you date exclusively, you get married, have kids and then you die and that’s seen as this perfect relationship and no one wants to step off of that or look at the options or look at what the pitfalls even are. “

M.C.: “Right. We’re conditioned many times to see our self-worth through it, in relation to another…”

K.P.: “Yeah.”

M.C.: “And not separate from that, and I think that sets us up for failure or conflict in relationships but it seems that in successful polyamorous relationships there’s an acknowledgment, right? That we are individuals and we need to be fed as individuals and that can also mean that romantically we are not always the sole providers of that nurturing.”

K.P.: “Yeah.”

M.C.: “…as the other partner.” 

K.P.: “Yeah, I mean it’s really important to sort of getting, get that idea that we’re not solely responsible for all of the needs of a partner. And that our partners aren’t solely responsible for all of our needs. It’s such an easy way to fracture a relationship when you’re putting the burden of everything on one person. Or if you’re just putting the burden of one thing on a partner that’s not suited to respond to that.”

M.C.: “Right, exactly. So let me ask you this, how open are you and your wife to your extended family? About your polyamorous relationship?

K.P.: “There was a point in our relationship where my wife and I started going to local meetups. We started hanging out with a polyamorous crowd. We had gotten into some relationships, especially on my end, gotten into some relationships that were really valuable to the point where we didn’t want to have to pass them off as “that’s a friend of mine,” you know?”

M.C.: “Right.”

K.P.: “When this is someone who I love and care about. So at that point, and this was like several years ago, we came right on out where my wife told her folks and I told mine. And she got a pretty favorable reception and I did not, but we’re, there’s no way we’re going back in the closet. We’re out. We’re aggressively out at this point so our polyamory is who we are and what we’re doing.” 

M.C.: “That’s beautiful, and I imagine having that kind of united front, I think I saw you all have tattoos. Is that correct?” 

K.P.: “Yeah, I designed a couple of tattoos. My wife got one that was… polyamory a lot of time uses like an infinity heart…”

M.C.: “Mhm.”

K.P.: “Infinity symbol laid over a heart. My wife got one that’s very flowery and lovely. She got it on her back, right between her shoulder blades. And I used that as the logo for Poly Role Models. On the other hand, I got one that’s, there’s a video game series, Assassins Creed. I’ve been a fan of the logo of that series for a great many years. I turned the logo upside down and fashioned it into sort of a stylized heart.” 

M.C.: “Ohh…”

K.P.: “…then put the same infinity logo, the same infinity symbol that my wife has, I used the same one on my own, and so now we’ve got these side matching tattoos.”

M.C.: “Nice! Nice! So, why is race, diversity and representation- why is it so important in the conversation of polyamory?”

K.P.: “We get these sorts of terms like I’m, I’m a hip-hop kid I grew up on all the greats, the Run DMC’s, the N.W.A.’s… And we get these terms every once in a while, in Black and urban pop culture where it will be like, O.P.P, the naughty by nature song…”

M.C.: “Oh other people’s property?” 

K.P.: “Yeah, yeah you’ll get like ‘jump off’ and ‘side chick’ and a couple of other terms. And so like now monogamy is a thing, but is it ethical monogamy? Is it consensual monogamy? Is it polyamory? Not really. We don’t really get to that point in some of these conversations and part of that ends up being a representation thing where growing up, growing up as a young Black kid it gets really easy to turn on the TV and see things that are only represented by white folks and then think, “that kind of thing isn’t for me.”

M.C.: “Mmm.”

K.P.: “…whether it is or it isn’t. It can be something that would provide my soul with the maximum amount of fulfillment but if I turn on the TV every day and I see only represented by white folx that might be something that I never try and polyamory fits into that same place where the immediate question is, isn’t that white people shit?”

M.C.: “Right.”

K.P.: “And I mean I’ve been, that’s a question that I’ve been asked multiple times by friends. It’s been friends, casual acquaintances, there’s a TV show on HBO called, Insecure, starring Issa Rae.”

M.C.: “Mhm.”

K.P.: “And in a very recent episode or not recent, in an episode in this latest season, the question of non-monogamy is explored and Issa Rae’s character immediately asked that question, “Isn’t that white people shit? It’s the name of one of the chapters of my book. Because it happens so frequently, there aren’t as many people of color involved in non-monogamous communities, non-monogamous spaces, events, conferences, and part of that is because there are people who don’t even know that, that’s an option in their relationships.”

M.C.: “Right, myself I’m a person of color of mixed backgrounds in terms of Black and Latina but I absolutely did not grow up with this lens or with this understanding. My parents definitely had affairs and ultimately that led to demises and their relationship…I grew up seeing this conflict, you know?”

K.P.: “Yeah.”

M.C.: “…and thinking that these were normal patterns of behavior in relationships and that if you love someone, if you love someone you will fight for them and it was conflict-laden…”

K.P.: “Yes.”

M.C.: “…and it took me a long time- I’m now approaching my forties- and it’s taken me a long time and more than one relationship to break out of that and learn some new ways of looking at relationships…”

K.P.: “Yeah.”

M.C.: “…and I know that I’m not alone in that. You said with the divorce rate being so high, you know that we really have a lot of work to do to broaden our perspective and, and options and opportunity here.”

K.P.: “The other thing that you hear a lot of is if you love someone you can’t even fall in love with someone else. Like if you truly love them then everyone else becomes immediately unattractive. Everyone else becomes immediately uninteresting, and that’s just not the case.”

M.C.: “Right”

K.P.: “And just having the options just having the resources to know that maybe there’s something else going on here other than monogamy or other than strict monogamy. Just knowing that that’s an option can make you feel like you’re not broken when you know how much you love your partner but also know how much you love somebody else who isn’t that person you’ve already committed to. Something that comes up in my blog a lot there’s so many times I read people who say, you know my blog is an interview series and people write about their experiences as polyamorous and you get a lot of people who write in and say, “I knew that making a lifelong commitment to one person didn’t make sense to me at age 16. But I didn’t know I had the option to do anything other than that until age 30.”

M.C.: “Yes, yes.”

K.P.: “And you know that’s something that happens all the time. One of my very favorite stories someone wrote in to my blog and said, “I was a teenager in high school, I was going out with person A and then I decided to break up with them to go out with person B we went on one good date. It was good. I didn’t wanna go out with person B and person A, wouldn’t have me back so now I’ve made the decision I would never make that sort of choice again.” And they were in high school the longer you go without having the wherewithal to make that statement the more miserable you’ll be when you have to make that statement when you finally figure out “you know maybe this monogamy thing just isn’t a good fit for me. Like it’s good for other people but maybe it’s just not what I need in my life.” The longer it takes you to figure that out, like that’s, that’s soul-crushing if you figure it out…”

M.C.: “Absolutely.”

K.P.:  “…way late in the game when you know your dating life is pretty much over.” 

M.C.: “Yeah. And then that also introducing that there are a lot of people who later in life have children at that point in their lives and so there can be a myth/misconception that, relationship styles such as polyamorous is not healthy for children. Can you speak to that?”

K.P.: “I mean just personal experience I’ll say that kids are blank slates.”

M.C.: “Mhm.” 

K.P.: “And the whole idea of what is and isn’t healthy to kids unless we are talking like objective things…”

M.C.: “Right.”

K.P.: “…like really you know, like fire, fire is unhealthy to kids!”

M.C.: [Laughter] “Yeah.”

K.P.: “Like that’s you know you can say that but there are so many things that we call unnatural or unhealthy to kids. Kids are a blank slate until we put our politics and our agendas on them. Kids accept and love everything. They don’t want to take naps and that’s about it.” 

M.C.: [Laughs]

K.P.: “…and when it comes to our, the polyamory, we didn’t have to have a long conversation with our kids explaining it, breaking things down…”

M.C.: “Right.”

K.P.: “We have a lot of people at our house, just in general whether that’s friends or family, or partners. People just hanging out, people watching tv, people who are spending the night. We have people at the house and our kids were good at taking up the level of familiarity there.”

M.C.: “Mhm.”

K.P.: “To the point where my older daughter when she was maybe like three was pulling my partners aside and saying like, “hey do you love my dad?” 

M.C.: “Awww.”

K.P.: “We didn’t have to have that conversation. She just picked up on it and asked questions when my back was turned.”

M.C.: “Right.”

K.P.: “She had, she got it on her own. The only time we’ve had to explain it  to our kids. There was a point where I was interviewed for a local newspaper and I was excited about it and I showed my daughter and I said I’m doing this blog and people are excited about it and they put me in the newspaper. She asked me what the blog was about, why anyone cared about me, why anyone would want to read it?” 

M.C.: [Laughter]

K.P.: “And I just said you know how we love you and when your sister was born we still love her?

M.C.: “Awe.”

K.P.: “We love her and we still love you? And she’s like, “ya,” it’s like well I love your mom, I love my girlfriend, and for some people, that’s a weird thing. so, that’s why, that’s what I write about and she’s like, “oh, okay I love my family.” 

M.C.: “Awe.”

K.P.: “And she kept it moving. She picked up her toys and went and played in some other room. It wasn’t a big deal for her because that’s her norm.”

K.P.: “She’s always grown up with other people around, other responsible adults that care about her and so it wasn’t a strange thing when that continued. It was more strange that someone recognized. It was more strange to her that people thought that, that was strange.” 

M.C.: “Yeah, yeah! Have they intersected with any commentary, adverse commentary from outsiders any peers, or any other family members or anything that they’ve had to confront with that?” 

K.P.: “Nah, that as far as we know they haven’t heard anything. But like I’m sort of the A parent in our situation. I do most of the pickups and drop-offs from school. A large part of my job is to keep my kids from driving my wife wild so I end up being sort of the A parent and everyone else is just sort of a check-in parent. My wife checks in, my girlfriend checks in, like my partners they check in they give me a break more than I give them a break so their not as visible in parenting as I am. The closest thing we’ve had to like some interaction based on, on school; one day at pick up my older daughter got home from school and she’s remarking about how some of her classmates have multiple same-sex parents. Where she’s like, “well that kid shes got two dads and that boy he’s got, two moms…”

M.C.: “Mhm.”

K.P.: “…So I want two dads and two moms. And we were like, alright well we will work on that for you I guess…” 

M.C.: [Laughter]

K.P.: “you know we sort of laughed it off. But that’s about as close as she’s had to like connecting our relationships style to anything she’s had going on at school.”

M.C.: “Yeah, it sounds like and, you know I have three kids in the home as well they range from age four all the way up to eighteen. And you know, I can attest to this as well, but it sounds like our kids just want to know that they’re loved and that they’re safe.”

K.P.: “Yes!” 

M.C.: “And as many people that are willing to provide that love and safety, they’re generally on board with that.” 

K.P.: [Laughter]

M.C.: “And they have really good instincts, you know they really know when it’s something feels right or when it doesn’t.”

K.P.: “Exactly, exactly! There was a point where my mother has never really been supportive of my non-monogamy. She said you should keep it away from your kids because they’re going to think it’s weird and I’m like well this is their norm mom. These are the people in their lives. And she’s like oh well they’re okay now but when they older their gonna see it’s weird. I’m like so they’re gonna all the sudden find their surroundings…”

M.C.: [Laughter] “Right.”

K.P.: “…to be unsuitable like…”

M.C.: “Right, Right.”

K.P.: “all these people around them that love them they’re gonna decide, ‘wait a minute I shouldn’t be getting this amount of love…”

M.C.: [Laughter] 

K.P.:  “…there shouldn’t be this many responsible adults who care about me. Get these responsible adults out of here’…” 

M.C.: [Laughter]

K.P.: “That’s not gonna happen.” [Laughter]

M.C.: “Right! So what advice would you have for folx or families who are intrigued by polyamory and want to give it a try. Want to open themselves up to this?” 

K.P.: “What I would say is, do the research! We, we’re sorta at this quality time where there’s a lot of books, there are a lot of podcasts, there are meetups, there are online communities there’s a lot of ways that you can sort of learn what the pitfalls are before hopping in and making mistakes. Because the mistakes are almost always with people’s hearts and that that’s not what you want to damage.” 

M.C.: “Right.”

K.P.: “One of the most common structures within polyamory is the Triad where it will end up being some couple, who decides they wanna open up their relationship and add a partner who they can both date.”

M.C.: “Mhm.”

K.P.: “And it sounds entry level it sounds really easy, it sounds like something like, “oh well, you know,” and most times it’s hetero couples and the guy doesn’t have to worry about being afraid of another guy, toxic masculinity territoriality…”

M.C.: “Mhm. Yeah” 

K.P: “…the woman can explore her bisexuality without having to leave the relationship that she’s already comfortable in. And it sounds entry-level, but like that’s something that’s so hard to achieve and so hard to maintain and it’s asking an awful lot out of the person that they’re seeking to date.”

M.C.: “Yeah.” 

K.P.: “But because it sounds entry-level, it’s a thing that people decide that they wanna jump right into, but if you like, do a bunch of research you’ll find, no that’s difficult to do. It’s really difficult to pull off. And so the way it ends up being is, we are in such a time of resources, and articles, and TED Talks…”

M.C.: “Right.”

K.P.: “Where you can learn all about all of these common pitfalls and figure things out without having to make the common mistakes that end up breaking people’s hearts, that end up getting ex-girlfriends, and turning people against polyamory in general.”

M.C.: “Right, yeah, and I hear also too, that there’s a lot of community right? There’s a, it sounds like there’s a lot of growing and strong communities around polyamory.” 

K.P.: “Yes, yes.”

M.C.: “Which is important…”

K.P.: “Absolutely.”

M.C.: “…for support. and so you talk about resources, you talk about books, so what excites you most? What are you most proud of, about your upcoming book, Love’s Not Color Blind? ”

K.P.: “Well what I’m most proud of really is that when I was writing it and when I started talking, I wasn’t really sure that I could change the landscape. I didn’t really think it would fall to me to change the landscape. It was just something, I was just talking about my experiences and I just never stopped talking, you know? 

M.C.: “Mhm.”

K.P.: “When I go to events in my local area now, they look different! The amount of people of color who are there, the amount of people who are active and participating, it looks so much different now than when I got started say two or three years ago. And just seeing that and knowing that I played a part in that and knowing that I can continue to play a part in that in terms of having a book, having a blog and the remaining sort of visible. Knowing that I can change that and make things more comfortable not just in my local area, but anywhere where I can appear as a resource. That, is amazing! And it’s so valuable and it means so much to me to know that I can help anybody do anything!”

M.C.: “Absolutely! Love that! And so as we wind down here, what does sex positivity mean to you?”

K.P.: “To me, it means not having to guess! Where, I didn’t have sex-positivity; I didn’t recognize it as a concept growing up. It’s like sex education for me when I was a kid meant a bunch of videos, or pictures of diseases…”

M.C.: “Mhm.” 

K.P.: “…and teachers who weren’t really into the topic, trying to teach us stuff that they didn’t wanna teach us…”

M.C.: “Right.”

K.P.: “And I would have loved to learn it from a place of positivity. Where it was like, “Hey this is a thing you should do. This is a thing you should be knowledgeable about because if you do it and you do it wrong it can cause consequences. But if you do it right it can be something awesome that your life is made out of,” and I wish I had, had that. Instead, I had crappy sex ed classes and smuggled copies of Penthouse.”

M.C.: [Laughter]

K.P.: “That’s not really what I wanted my, I mean I feel like I turned out okay, however cliche as that sounds…”

M.C.: “Mhm.”

K.P.: “But I’m sure that I have friends that I grew up with, I’m sure I have classmates that I was around who got the same education that I did and turned out not nearly as well adjusted as I did. And that shouldn’t even be an option. We should all be able to approach sex from a place of positivity.”

M.C.: “And I wanna point out too, it seems like a good core theme, that sounds like it makes this work is, communication. In terms of polyamory and sex positivity is just really owning your truth and being able to communicate that, respectfully, ethically with others.” 

K.P.: “Yes, absolutely.” 

M.C.: “And so, what projects are you most excited about looking at 2018?”

K.P.: “Well first and foremost, the book which is called, Love is Not Colorblind: Race and Representation in Polyamorous and Other Alternative Communities. It’s an extension of a workshop that I’ve been giving around the country about how race intersects with polyamory, what it looks like in our communities, what it looks like in our individual relationships. For the last three or so years going into its fourth year now I’ve been doing a blog called, Poly Role Models. Poly Role Models is available at Tumblr. It is an interview series where people talk about how they got into polyamory, what they’re good at, what they’re terrible at, how they rebound from the things that they’re terrible at. And what self-identities are important to them and how those impact their polyamory. As I said, it’s going into its fourth year right now. It’s the most inclusive and diverse showcase of polyamory available anywhere. It’s been a labor of love, and it’s taken me to a lot of places this year. I’m doing a book tour so I can feel like saying like Poly Role Models, is taking me around the country on this book tour. I’m gonna be all over the Pacific Northwest, I’m gonna be in California…

M.C.: “Wow.”

K.P.: “Up and down the east coast, New York, Philadelphia, D.C., Atlanta, Asheville North Carolina. I’m gonna be in the south, in the Southwest, Albuquerque, Tucson, the best places to find me in my work right now is probably the Facebook page. Which is facebook.com/polyrolemodels and that’s where I keep an updated event calendar. That’s where I share all of my posts from the Tumblr page, and I also like to promote other people who have appeared in Poly Role Models, because they offer so many resources in terms of sexual education and polyamory awareness and some of them are just awesome people. So I like keeping people up on what they are doing, whenever possible.” 

M.C.: “Thank you so much for all that you do! It’s obviously a labor of love and community and it is like you said changing the landscape and creating opportunities for everyone and it’s not just white people shit. [laughter]

K.P.: “Yeah!”

M.C.: “Well thank you so much, we will include links to all of your platforms in the show notes and also to where you can get a copy of his book….”

K.P.: “Thank you!” 

M.C.: “We look forward to seeing what more you have in store because we know that’s not it.”

K.P.: “Awesome, Thank you, thank you so much for having me.”

 

{Soft instrumental music plays as outro} 

{Person speaking} 

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