008: Lydia M. Bowers | Pleasure in the Early Years

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Welcome to Sex Positive Families where parents, caring adults, and advocates come to grow and learn about sexual health in a supportive community. I’m your host, and the founder of SPF, Melissa Carnagey. Join me, and special guests, as we dive into the art of sex-positive parenting. Together, we will shake the shame and trash the taboos to strengthen sexual health talks with the children in our lives. Thank you so much for joining us! 

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Hello families, I have a question for you. What were your earliest experiences with pleasure? Do you remember being in the womb? Or those first cuddles with a caring adult? Probably not that far back, right? Well some of us may recall a little further down the road, when we discovered pleasure in the context of our bodies, in masturbation, and there may or may not have been shame associated with those experiences. Well in this episode we’re exploring pleasure in the early years of a child’s life and how parents and caring adults can best support their child’s understanding of pleasure without taboo, especially before it’s even about sex. Helping me explore this important topic is Lydia M. Bowers, a sex educator who is passionate about helping families and other educators understand and appropriately support sexual development in individuals from birth to adulthood. She is a pleasure professional with O.school and an American Sexual Health Association ambassador with over 15 years of experience as an early childhood educator. Want to know how to foster a healthy understanding of pleasure? Let’s have a listen.

Melissa Carnagey: “I’m so excited to have you with us, especially for this topic. How are you?”

Lydia Bowers: “Good. How are you?”

M.C.: “I’m doing well!”

L.B.: “Thank you.”

M.C.: “Yes, so glad to have you! Before we get started, if you can share with us, what has your journey been like to the work that you’re doing now?” 

L.B.: “I was in the early childhood education field for about fifteen years. I spent time as a classroom teacher for infants, toddlers. I spent quite a bit of time in preschool specifically. And during that time I was personally dealing with a lot of painful utero-vaginal sexual issues. And through that, I had started studying and researching sexual health specifically. And realized that there was a big lack of information when it came to sexual development and young children. And so I had at some point thought that early childhood and sexual education were two very separate things with no overlap. And I quickly realized that wasn’t the case. And so a lot of studying and research that I’ve done has been in that area. And have been able to talk at different conferences, and talking to early childhood educators about sexuality development, and talking to sex educators about early childhood development.”

M.C.: “Yeah.”

L.B.: “…and kinda finding ways to sort of bridge that and help people realize that it’s something we have to start talking about really early. I think we certainly recognize that we need to be teaching kids different things, especially when it comes to issues about bodily autonomy and consent. And normally what we see are sex education things starting up about puberty time, right?” 

M.C.: “Mhm.”

L.B.: “Instead of recognizing that these are things we have to start talking about with children in very different ways but much earlier as well.”

M.C.: “Absolutely, we couldn’t agree more here at SPF. And you have some personal experience, am I right? As far as, aside from working with children. You also have some children in the home?”

L.B.: “I do, I have an eleven-year-old and a three-year-old. The three-year-old gets the benefit of my more recent studying and expertise. You know, it’s one of those things where you always look back, especially when you have children of different ages. And you think, “Oh, I wish I would’ve done this differently,” but again it’s one of those things where it’s never too late to start.”

M.C.: “Yes.”

L.B.: “And so, even though we may not have used all the right terms or the right language, with my eleven-year-old, we certainly are doing what we can now to kinda change that. And how we phrase things, and how we frame attitudes about relationships and our bodies, and sex, and things like that.”

M.C.: “I love that you bring that up because you know it is a journey. It’s not the one and done conversation and so, really it’s life long. And even as they move into adulthood and they’re no longer children that’s a whole other type of relationship that you’re going to have with them. And then as you evolve and get older as well, and into your sexuality in a different age range yourself, it all just evolves together. So I can relate to that and I know a lot of folks that are listening can too. My kids are ten years apart, so I get those moments where I’m like, “Mmm yeah, I wish I knew that, I wish I read that, I wish I said that.”

L.B.: (laughs) “Right!”

M.C.: “So there have been a couple of things I have gone back to my now eighteen-year-old daughter and especially doing this work, where I’m like, “You know we never talked about that. Let’s talk about that now.”

L.B.: “Yes.”

M.C.: “She’s like, “Okay Mom,” (laughs) So today, we are going to talk about pleasure. What does talking about pleasure with children look like in the early years?” 

L.B.: “Well, one of the things that I think it’s important for us to recognize is when we’re talking about any aspect of sexual development or issues, but pleasure in particular, is recognizing when we have feelings of discomfort that creep up. Because what often happens is that, we as adults tend to take our understanding and knowledge of sexuality and apply that to children. So for example, young children, especially preschool and under, will play with their body parts, including their genitals. And often adults see that and we take what we know about or our experiences with masturbation and our kind of panic and go, “oh no you shouldn’t do that!” Not understanding that for a child they’re not picturing somebody naked.” 

M.C.: “Right.”

L.B.: “They’re not imagining some hot and heavy thing. They are simply touching a different part of their body. And experiencing that their body can feel good. And one of the things, so when we are talking pleasure specifically, I love that you have merchandise that says, “Pleasure is not a bad word.”

M.C.: “Yeah, yeah it’s not a dirty word.” 

L.B.: “Not a dirty word, yes!”

M.C.: “Because, that’s what our society even just playfully tells us, is that there are dirty things, and bad and kinky, and all these things. It puts a negative connotation.”

L.B.: “Yeah, so even when we hear the saying, “well children experiencing pleasure.” Somehow we automatically equate the word pleasure with sex. Which is fine, that certainly can be one aspect of it as an adult. But when we’re talking about young children, young children experience pleasure. Pleasure is this feeling of joy, of happiness, of excitement, of feeling good and those are wonderful very non-sexual things. So when we’re talking about pleasure specifically whether we are dealing with a child playing, or we’re talking about an adult having a positive sexual interaction, our brains are kind of wired to respond to pleasure very similarly. And there is part of the brain that people often refer to as the pleasure center. Which is more the reward center. And that when we are experiencing something pleasurable, it releases the chemical dopamine. Dopamine is like a save button. And that when that’s released and is present we remember it more, and it holds more significance. And that’s why for early childhood play it’s so important. And if you start looking into early childhood studies, there’s so much on how children have to learn through play. And that dopamine is part of it, because when they’re playing when they’re experiencing pleasure from what they’re doing they hold onto it longer. And then there’s other hormones and chemicals: oxytocin, serotonin, all these things that are released by the brain. That is calming, and soothing, mood-regulating and when we are helping children identify these moments of pleasure non-sexually then what happens is they can start learning to recognize that and trust that in their own bodies. So at some point down the line when they’re dealing with sexual pleasure, they can still be in tune with their bodies and recognize, “yeah this is something that feels good,” “this is pleasure,” or “no, this isn’t pleasure,” and maybe I need to figure out what is wrong. Or why I’m not feeling pleasurable about this.”

M.C.: “Yeah. You know what’s coming to mind for me too when you talk about play, is sadly our society, our American culture, as we get older it starts to send us the message that, “We gotta get serious.” Right? Now that we’re adults…”

L.B.: “Yes.”

M.C.: “We’ve gotta put the play away and we’ve got to get to work, and we’ve got to get serious. So hearing you say that the first thing that came to mind was, “Wow, we get to tap into that, and get more encouraged to do that when we’re younger. And make those imprints like you were talking about. But then our culture often pulls that rug out from under us.” 

L.B.: “Absolutely, and as a culture, we are almost taking that from children earlier and earlier.” 

M.C.: “Yes, yes.”

L.B.: “I mean if you look in so many kindergartens, it’s sitting down and doing worksheets.” 

M.C.: “Yes, yeah.”

L.B.: “And we’re going to cut this exact way, and we are going to glue this exact way, and we’re going to color this exact way, and children’s brains aren’t wired for that, that young. What we’re doing as a society, frankly is detaching children from their bodies. And as a culture, we struggle with that. And we see now where, and I think this plays into some of the issues where we’re seeing more and more people come forward, and not just in cases of violent assault. But where people are saying, “Okay, wait a minute I knew something was wrong about this but I didn’t know what. And now I recognize it as being assault or misconduct.” And some of that I think has to do with the fact that we are very detached from ourselves.  And so, it’s hard for us, we start from a young age sort of being separated either separated from pleasure or being told regularly that what you’re feeling isn’t accurate.”

M.C.: “Right.”

L.B.: “So sometimes it could be something like you’re sitting in kindergarten and you’re antsy and you’re wiggling around and you just need to move. And you’re being told, “you need to sit still, you need to sit still.  Or things like when we tell a child, “well you need to hug grandma because it will make her feel sad if you don’t,” And the child is saying, feeling like, “well I don’t want to hug grandma.” But we are saying, don’t be silly that’s your grandma you hug them anyway. And we negate children’s feelings and those feelings of what feels pleasurable and what doesn’t, but then we expect them as adults to be able to know what feels good and what doesn’t. We see a lot of victim shaming or blaming. Saying, “well, you should have known better, or shouldn’t you have realized something was going on?” But we’ve started conditioning children from so young to not recognize the difference between what truly feels pleasurable and not or what feels good to your body or not, or to your feelings.”

M.C.: “How can parents and caring adults initiate some discussions around it? What are some topics or some areas that they can focus on?”

L.B.: “Well, I think one important thing to work on, and this is something for adults to work on as well, is it’s great especially for families, if as parents and caregivers if you’re doing this then you’re able to help identify it more in children.  But just being mindful and being aware of what feels good. So even if you’re sitting down to a meal as a family and more than just, “oh this is delicious!” But let’s get specific. What is the taste that you’re enjoying? What is this texture that you enjoy? And almost make a game out of, how can we identify what we like? What is feeling good for us? And, because the more we practice being intentionally present and mindful in these moments, it helps us recognize as well and models that for children who will probably pick things up faster than most adults will when it comes to recognizing moments of pleasure.”

M.C.: “For sure.”

L.B.: “It can also be, especially when we are talking much younger children, with toilet training is a big one. Where even with that, what happens a lot of the time is that we will, during potty training we will praise children, “Okay, yeah you went!” But we will still say things like, “eww that’s so stinky,” or “get that out!” And we’ll still laugh about it and joke about it but that’s another area that is a rich way to help children identify what feels good, and that their bodies are good. So instead of saying, “eww that’s stinky let’s get that out.” Instead, saying, “I bet that felt good to get that out of your body.”

M.C.: “Mmm, I like that.”

L.B.:  “Your body is good for doing its job. Now let’s get you some clean underwear or a clean diaper, and that will feel good too.” So even just framing potty training. This way of recognizing these are the sensations my body feels and that these body parts aren’t dirty or bad. These body parts are doing their job to make me feel good. And so even moments like that where it’s not playing on the playground or eating ice cream; which those moments are pleasurable as well and we can identify those. But just those small moments every day particularly when it comes to sensations that our bodies are feeling.”

M.C.: “Yes, giving them the language so that they can describe these feelings that they are having. I feel like there are a lot of adults who may struggle with that. With talking about their own pleasure, not just experiencing it, but really talking about it and having the right words or descriptors. Or feeling like it’s safe to have those types of discussions. And so what I’m hearing from you is that, if we can start early, then we are sending them that message that there’s nothing wrong with their pleasure. There’s everything right about their pleasure, and here are some ways that they can describe it. Because then when we can describe what feels good to us, to our partners or to someone else in our lives, then we are more likely to be able to negotiate the things that we want…”

L.B.: “Yes.”

M.C.: “And say, no or yes affirmatively.”

L.B.: “Start with those tangible descriptors about this physical sensation feels good. Then it’s easier to step into more of things like emotions where we can say, “Okay, yes, that didn’t feel good when somebody called you that name.” So you can recognize what doesn’t feel good as well. Because then those are important steps, especially when we are talking to children about safety. Recognizing too, to trust ourselves, and trust our feelings…”

M.C.: “Right.”

L.B.: “Trust those gut instincts, that something doesn’t feel right. And so, as you know when we can first talk about physical sensations and what feels good, then we can start building on that and talk about those feelings that feel good. It feels good when your friend shared a toy with you. It makes us feel safe, or when someone is upset, feeling unsafe. Especially, if a child is scared, that is a great way to frame saying, “It doesn’t feel good when we’re scared; being scared makes us feel unsafe.” And that’s a great way to identify that, because then you can use that when you’re talking to children about, “if someone ever makes you feel unsafe, this is what you need to do.” Because then they can connect it with that feeling that they have already experienced in a different capacity. And being able to have these conversations about what feels good and what do I like, with a family, also helps build a very early understanding that things we may like, and things we may sense are pleasurable may be different for different people. And that’s such a beautiful, simple way to have that conversation. My children love to point out who in the family likes to eat olives, and who in the family likes to eat peanut butter. “

M.C.: [small laughter] “Mhm, yeah.”

L.B.: “And identifying who likes what, and who doesn’t like what, but recognizing that it’s not a big deal. And that’s again one of these building blocks too later on that says, “It’s fine if we all don’t like the same thing, and I might find this pleasurable but you don’t and since you don’t like peanut butter, I’m not going to force peanut butter on you.” And so these are just these very simple early ways to start having these conversations and exploring this language. And the ideas of being in touch with ourselves as well as recognizing differences in others and respecting that as well. So often, especially with young children, children throw tantrums and they cry for what we feel like may be no reason. And it’s easy for us as adults to say something like, “stop crying it’s not a big deal. Stop crying it will be fine,” but we have to recognize that as adults we struggle enough with identifying our emotions. Let alone these tiny people who have such big emotions in these tiny bodies. And so something like, just getting down on their level and saying, “I can see that you are sad. Is that how you are feeling?” or giving them terms for these things that they are feeling. Being able to pick up on those non-verbal cues, we can also help children recognize some of those. In our house we have pets, and my three year old loves to pick up the cat, but the cat does not always like to be picked up. So that’s something where we’ll say, “Okay, now when Rapunzel is squirming like that, that means she doesn’t want to be held. So even though she can’t say no, we still need to put her down. And we can help with that, and sometimes that’s the case if there are younger siblings. If you’re out on a walk and there’s a bird or a squirrel or something, recognizing that here are these ways that we can recognize non-verbal communication in others.”

M.C.: “Absolutely, and so this capacity for our children to experience pleasure, this is not something that turns on at a certain age?”

L.B.: “Inside the uterus…where there is thumb sucking, these are reflex things. We are, from the beginning, seeking soothing, and looking for what feels good.” 

M.C.: “I think that’s why this conversation and this information is so important. Helping adults/parents, especially if you’re feeling any level of discomfort about this, understand that this is not about sex. There will come a time when it will be about sex for your young person, but at these beginning and early years, it is not. It is just a function of being a human and navigating this world and the special relationships and bonding.”

L.B.: “And we do have to think when we are dealing with young children- what is this going to look like in five years? What is this going to look like in ten years? What is this going to look like in fifteen years? So when we tell a child, “No, don’t be silly. You’re crying for no reason. Or don’t touch that part of your body, it’s dirty and bad.” What do those messages then say to them? Because those things get ingrained and they become these inner monologues and inner voices.” 

M.C.: “Absolutely.”

L.B.: “And many of us dealt with that. Many of us have grown up with some of these things and we are still dealing with messages that we received as children. Emily Nagoski wrote a book called, Come As You Are which is a wonderful book! And in it, she gives this example of a garden and that every person is born with this plot of land and when we’re young, when we’re babies, when we’re young children, our caregivers are planting and tending this garden. And eventually, someday we have to take over maintenance, but we have in this garden what was planted and cared for or neglected for us. As adults we are navigating our own gardens, and with what we are trying to intentionally take care of and what has been there from the beginning. And we have to recognize that we are taking care of these gardens for our children. So some of these things that we hope we are planting, tending and nurturing, we hope they will continue to once they take over. We have to recognize too that if we are waiting for our children someday to have healthy sex lives, but we don’t talk to children about it or give any foundation for it, then when they’re old enough they’re left with no resources. And have to figure it out for themselves.” 

M.C.: “And that’s unfortunately where a lot of us as adults find ourselves. We’re adult children. [laughter] Going about…And then it’s really hard because then many of us become parents, and then we are trying to figure this out. This has been rich, we’re going to wrap up here and I would love to know your perspective on what sex positivity means to you?”

L.B.: “Sex positivity to me means, recognizing that our bodies are good, that pleasure is good. And particularly sex positivity when it comes to parenting is that sexuality is much bigger than just sex. And that sexuality is just another facet of our humanity, and I think really what it comes down to is sex positivity is recognizing that and valuing that aspect of ourselves just as much as any other aspect.”

M.C.: “Beautiful. So what projects do you have going on. What things do you have brewing for 2018?”

L.B.: “Well, currently I am one of the sex educators and pleasure professionals with O.school. Which is a platform for free online sex education. Right now I am doing live streams usually twice a month, so every other Saturday night, at nine eastern. I am doing workshops on various topics, usually, it’s related to sexuality and childhood and parenting. I also do information on sexuality when it comes to dealing with pain or trauma, working with partners. My husband and I are doing a stream together about partners of trauma survivors.”

M.C.: “Mmm, That’s awesome.”

L.B.: “I’m also working with the University of Cincinnati, starting this spring…”

M.C.: “Nice.”

L.B.: “To present information in the community on childhood sexual development and some of these topics around that.”

M.C.: “Excellent!”

L.B.: “So those are kinda my big focuses this year.”

M.C.: “Yeah, no that’s perfect! I certainly have tuned into some old O.school live streams, and they’re such an amazing resource. Just having so many sex educators, sex therapists, sexual health advocates that are really knowledgeable and relatable. Having you all as resources live and ready and willing to answer any questions and the range of topics that’s available to folx.”

L.B.: “Oh, it’s amazing! “

M.C.: “Isn’t it? It’s just amazing and especially for parents and caring adults, I love that they have you there and that perspective, because it’s just so important that we’re nurturing that next generation. Pursuing some better outcomes. So, how can people find you in terms of wanting to connect with you or work with you?”

L.B.: “Probably the easiest way is my website which is www.lydiambowers.com. I’m @lydiambowers on all the different social media as well, but my website is the easiest way. I have a newsletter there where I will send out updates to the live streams, and workshops and additional resources. That would be the best way.”

M.C.: “Excellent, well I will make sure that all of those links are included in the show notes. Lydia is also really good at this with your other live streams that you do as well, at creating some comprehensive resource lists. So, I will make sure that we also include some resources relevant to this topic so if folks want to learn more or read more about it.”

L.B.: “Yes.”

M.C.: “I appreciate you sharing this time with us. You’ve been a wealth of knowledge and looking forward to continuing this work. It’s definitely needed.”

L.B.: “Yes, thank you for what you do as well. You are on all of my parenting and family-related resource lists.” 

M.C.: “Thank you, that means a lot. There can never be too many sex educators out there and folx doing this work. We have a lot of healing to do.”

L.B.: “Yes. Yes.”

M.C.: “And a lot to learn. So I love that we can collaborate in these ways and really elevate these messages because it takes a village.” [laughter]

L.B.: “Yes, oh, absolutely. “

M.C.: “Well thank you so much, Lydia!” 

L.B.: “Thank you.”

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